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Stop Leak
January 21, 2012
5:24 pm
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Steve Pooler
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They are Multi-Ton Air Handlers 30,000 BTU (2.5 Ton) and Up...

"Direct Drive" means no belt to drive the Squirrel Cage blower.

 

Steve~

January 21, 2012
4:24 pm
davidwigler
Knoxville, TN
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Thanks, Steve. I do intend to keep this boat and want to explore every option and do this once and for all.  I'll send you some pics by e-mail and you are welcome to post them here if you want.

 

What are the direct drive cooling units and the central units at the bottom of this page:

 

** you don't have permission to see this link **

1977 Hatteras 58' Motoryacht, galley up model with 4 staterooms

5 reverse cycle Cruisair compressors in the starboard engine room with SMXII controllers.  One self contained unit for the enclosed aft deck.  Total 87K btu

January 21, 2012
1:18 pm
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Steve Pooler
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davidwigler said:

Thanks, Steve, self contained units looks like the way to go.  To be more specific on what I have currently, the aftdeck is fully enclosed and permanently open to the salon, so we are heating and cooling a large area.  The aftdeck currently has an old 8-12btu self contained unit for air conditioning only, that I never had to use because the split salon unit is quite adequate (when it is charged).  This self contained unit is located on one side of the bulkhead wall on the other side of the smaller of the two salon air handlers, which is probably 12btu.  The self contained unit already has a seawater pump from the bilge of the master stateroom below and a discharge line to a sea chest below, so it makes sense to me to replace both these units with one new 16btu unit and two discharge vents (blowing fore and aft).  I might have to enlarge the return air opening, but there should be plenty of room between the two existing cabinets.

 

The other side of the split salon unit is in a large cabinet at the galley at the forward part of the salon and there should be plenty of room for another 16btu unit.  This is directly above the starboard engine room which has the existing seawater relay/manifold system.

 

The third unit would go in the existing cabinet in the port side of the Master Stateroom and I just need to determine how best to get seawater to it.  I could easily run a line through the bilge to the starboard side where the above-described seawater pump is that serves the aftdeck unit.  Would a relay/manifold work to serve units on two levels?

As I said earlier...It's not really a good idea to try to pump water to 2 levels with one pump...Reason being is the differing head levels the pump has to overcome...Water wants to take the path of least resistance, so most times you must oversize the pump to get adequate flow to the upper units, while the lower units get blasted...This backpressure can cause cavitation & erosion of the pump head, it's impeller, bronze elbows, etc...and to a lesser extent, the seawater condenser on the units themselves.

 

I already have two SMXII controllers, so I would only need one new control pad for the three new units. 

 

What's the difference between the Vecor Turbo and the Stowaway Turbo units?...Only differences are the model numbers, Brand stickers, and the control circuit boards...

  • Vector's have the board for the Marine Air Control/s...Elite & Passport I/O
  • Stowaway's have the board for the Cruisair control...
  • In which STX-xx C (xx being btu "C" being for 230 volt) is for the Cruisair SMXII family of Controls (SMXII & SMXir) 
  • STQ-xx models are for the newer Cruisair Q-Logic control....
  • Since you have SMXII you would order the "STX" units 

 

Would I need separate seawater pumps for the upper unit, or can it be served by the existing relay/manifold system in the engine room?...See Above...

 

Please send a quote to my e-mail address on two 16btu units and one 12btu unit, all 240 volts – with and without sound shields.  Do working 24btu and 12btu condensers have any trade in value?  I could send you specs and a photograph.

I will send you a mail David,

Steve~

January 20, 2012
5:03 pm
davidwigler
Knoxville, TN
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Thanks, Steve, self contained units looks like the way to go.  To be more specific on what I have currently, the aftdeck is fully enclosed and permanently open to the salon, so we are heating and cooling a large area.  The aftdeck currently has an old 8-12btu self contained unit for air conditioning only, that I never had to use because the split salon unit is quite adequate (when it is charged).  This self contained unit is located on one side of the bulkhead wall on the other side of the smaller of the two salon air handlers, which is probably 12btu.  The self contained unit already has a seawater pump from the bilge of the master stateroom below and a discharge line to a sea chest below, so it makes sense to me to replace both these units with one new 16btu unit and two discharge vents (blowing fore and aft).  I might have to enlarge the return air opening, but there should be plenty of room between the two existing cabinets.

 

The other side of the split salon unit is in a large cabinet at the galley at the forward part of the salon and there should be plenty of room for another 16btu unit.  This is directly above the starboard engine room which has the existing seawater relay/manifold system.

 

The third unit would go in the existing cabinet in the port side of the Master Stateroom and I just need to determine how best to get seawater to it.  I could easily run a line through the bilge to the starboard side where the above-described seawater pump is that serves the aftdeck unit.  Would a relay/manifold work to serve units on two levels?

 

I already have two SMXII controllers, so I would only need one new control pad for the three new units. 

 

What's the difference between the Vecor Turbo and the Stowaway Turbo units? 

 

Would I need separate seawater pumps for the upper unit, or can it be served by the existing relay/manifold system in the engine room?

 

Please send a quote to my e-mail address on two 16btu units and one 12btu unit, all 240 volts – with and without sound shields.  Do working 24btu and 12btu condensers have any trade in value?  I could send you specs and a photograph.

1977 Hatteras 58' Motoryacht, galley up model with 4 staterooms

5 reverse cycle Cruisair compressors in the starboard engine room with SMXII controllers.  One self contained unit for the enclosed aft deck.  Total 87K btu

January 20, 2012
10:32 am
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Steve Pooler
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David~

I wanted to add a few thoughts to the above…Kinda a different take so I'm making this post separate…

 

You are smart in asking about new refrigerants & later down the line as there are a few ways to look at this If you plan on keeping the boat…

  • Replace your existing R-22 Air Handlers & Hope the Condensing units fail before Dometic stops production of R-22 units (I don't know when that might happen but the compressor manufacturers will have bearing on this…See my link above)
  • Bite the bullet now & Change everything to the new R-410A refrigerant "Emerald" series Split systems…Which will be up to 27% more efficient than the R-22 system (You will see a sizable amperage draw reduction)
  • Consider a conversion to the new R-410A "Turbo" self contained "All in One" units that are factory charged & guaranteed to not leak (at least for a year, and if they don't leak in that first year they should not for many more)  /marketplace/marine-air-conditioning-marketplace/cruisair/cruisair-stowaway-turbo-unit-smxii-wr410a-models-stx12-410a-or-stx12c-410a/ 
The last option has some advantages, and may be your cheapest/simplest overall option for "All New" reliable equipment.
Advantages:
  • Can be installed by most anyone without worry of refrigerant leaks….Just connect, Power, Water, Drain, Duct & Pump wire (Power & Pump wiring should already be close)
  • Same power reduction advantages as the Emerald split system/s
  • Whole unit can be removed in one piece for repair
  • Likely will fit in the same spaces as the current Salon air handlers (if you go with 2 smaller units)
  • Frees up space in the engine room
  • You have now upgraded the Whole system to what's eminent for the future  
  • No real need to hire a older tubby A/C guy to fly in & "Ruffle Feathers"…He can do that from this end  Cool
Disadvantages…Some can become advantages:
  • You must run seawater up to & overboard from where the unit lives…This may not be easy & can also increase maintenance…
  • A second pump (and associated thru hull & strainer) may be needed or advised, since you are now pumping water higher…But also gives redundancy so that the whole boat is not without A/C…
  • Some will say…The compressor noise is now in the living space (with the unit inside cabinetry) but they are nowadays so quiet, I have yet to sell an optional compressor sound shield for one.
  • Salon would maybe take 2 units (if you want them to fit in the same spaces) but it does give redundancy so that you at least have one working, and at lower heat load times you can lower power draw by only running one…Or you can set them a degree or two apart so they are staged.

That's about all I can think of now but If I come up with something else I'll let you know  Confused

Steve~ 
January 20, 2012
9:22 am
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Steve Pooler
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Hi David~

 

davidwigler said:

If I bought three air handlers and had them installed locally, what kind of warranty would I get?…Same Dometic 1 year factory warranty thru their world wide dealer network as you would get if purchased anywhere else…

 

How do I know the leak won't continue and be blamed on the condensers or the lines then?…To be honest…You don't….That would be up to the installer to be sure you have a leak free system when he leaves…And even then…Who's to say that a leak may not develop in the now older half of each system ?…How old are those units & what is their condition…Do you see any black spots where tubing joins ?….

 

When the condensers are replaced in the future, will the new air handlers work with the new refrigerants?…No they will not…Here's an article I wrote about new/old refrigerants & how they affect & apply to Marine A/C…If that does not fully explain it let me know & I will try to clarify more… /marine-ac-new-refrigerant-regulations/ 

 

I will say that your comment of "They seem to leak faster in heating mode than cooling"…Does imply that it is the air handlers that are leaking…Reason being is in the heat mode, they are the High pressure side of the system…In cooling they are the Low pressure side…More pressure = Faster leak… 

 

The 24k salon unit has probably 16k and 8k air handlers and the master stateroom unit is 12k.  What would air handlers cost with shipping to 37902?…I can only quote retail pricing here (Dometic's rules) 12K air handlers are $985 retail...Thru e-mail or by phone I can quote discounts…Also…The full Cruisair retail price book is in the Cruisair link at the top of this page…We would need to know for sure the exact sizes of your air handlers…I'm thinking the Salon might be two 12K units if original…Angela over on HOF could tell you what her 58 MY has, or you could look at your original Hatteras paperwork… 

 

It's off season, and you could use a snow skiing vacation at OberGatlinburg in the Smokies, right?  Seriously Steve, what would you charge to sell and install three air handlers?

David…I haven't even been on a water ski in at least 25 years, and I'm not really geared up to bring the equipment needed to do the job myself…I may be willing to fly in to oversee a well equipped, experienced local guy if they are willing to put up with that…However that could Ruffle Feathers a bit, and they would need to be in agreement before I even thought of it…Working with Ruffled Feathers almost never Tickles the right way…But then again I guess that depends on the lady  Wink

 

Steve~ 

January 19, 2012
9:12 pm
davidwigler
Knoxville, TN
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If I bought three air handlers and had them installed locally, what kind of warranty would I get?  How do I know the leak won't continue and be blamed on the condensers or the lines then?  When the condensers are replaced in the future, will the new air handlers work with the new refrigerants?

 

The 24k salon unit has probably 16k and 8k air handlers and the master stateroom unit is 12k.  What would air handlers cost with shipping to 37902?

 

It's off season, and you could use a snow skiing vacation at OberGatlinburg in the Smokies, right?  Seriously Steve, what would you charge to sell and install three air handlers? 

1977 Hatteras 58' Motoryacht, galley up model with 4 staterooms

5 reverse cycle Cruisair compressors in the starboard engine room with SMXII controllers.  One self contained unit for the enclosed aft deck.  Total 87K btu

January 10, 2012
11:25 am
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Steve Pooler
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davidwigler said:

 

Would you be interested in making a service call to Knoxville?

 

You're not serious are you David ?  Wink  That could be expensive...

But I have to admit that I would love selling you some Air Handlers...  Laugh  And those I will discount...

 

Steve~

January 9, 2012
1:06 pm
davidwigler
Knoxville, TN
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Thanks, Steve, I'll try to remember - air handler, air handler, air handler, air handler,...

 

Would you be interested in making a service call to Knoxville?

1977 Hatteras 58' Motoryacht, galley up model with 4 staterooms

5 reverse cycle Cruisair compressors in the starboard engine room with SMXII controllers.  One self contained unit for the enclosed aft deck.  Total 87K btu

January 9, 2012
8:42 am
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Steve Pooler
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David~

The air handlers are only "Condensers" when operating in heat mode…They are "Evaporators" when cooling…

Not to be picky but to save confusion it's better to call them Air Handlers or Air Coils…

The unit in the engine room is usually called a "Condensing Unit" as it has the Condenser (when in cooling and the systems primary mode of operation) it's Condenser we usually call the Water Coil since it becomes an Evaporator when in heat.

Now that we got that over with Wink

I do NOT approve of Stop Leak…I have plugged up 2 systems with the R-22 versions I have tried…

At 35 years David…It's time to replace those Air handlers…They don''t owe anyone a thing at their age…

They each have a hundred or more solder joints that hold them together inside, and each of those joints are susceptible to galvanic action over the years…If one joint is leaking & repaired…Another is likely not far off from doing the same.

Is it worth the expense to repair…Then have it happen again shortly ?

Another drawback to a leaking system…Compressors rely on the system being FULL of refrigerant to keep from overheating (the water only takes the heat out of the refrigerant) Even a small loss of refrigerant causes the compressor to run warmer than it should…More loss the hotter it gets & you may not notice because the system still cools…

So…A three month leak as you describe tells me you have been overheating your compressor for at least 2 months…How many times now ?

Refrigerant loss is one of the big reasons compressors fail…These systems are not like cars with rubber hoses & compressor shaft seals that are known to leak…

 

Steve~ 

January 9, 2012
6:58 am
davidwigler
Knoxville, TN
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My AC technician wants to try a stop leak product to stop persistent leaks in the 24k split unit in the salon and the 12k unit in the Master Stateroom.  He describes this product as a "last ditch" effort to save them. He does not seem very confident it will help.

 

I am told the condensers are original, 35 years old, but the compressors in the engine room have all been replaced.  He has used a freon detector at the condenser connections where he can reach them but two of them are not accessible without some carpentry. 

 

When charged, the systems both work great.  They seem to lose charge faster in heating mode than cooling, but still ran for 3 months since the last charge. 

 

I want to do this right.  If the stop leak products are temporary or can do any harm, forget it - I'm ready to do the necessary carpentry to find the leaks.  It will have to be done anyway to replace the condensers eventually.

 

Any ideas or comments?

1977 Hatteras 58' Motoryacht, galley up model with 4 staterooms

5 reverse cycle Cruisair compressors in the starboard engine room with SMXII controllers.  One self contained unit for the enclosed aft deck.  Total 87K btu