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Smart start device
August 9, 2011
1:33 pm
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Steve Pooler
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SmartStart is only active during Start up of the compressor...It can't help with running load.

The SmartStart retails for $450.00

 

The only thing you can do to help that generator is to be sure you always have full water flow and a clean condenser coil (water coil)...No scale buildup.

 

Steve~

August 8, 2011
7:31 pm
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biohazard
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Steve, 

 

I run my marine air 10k from my honda 2000eu generator.  She gets a bit loud when starting and running the a/c.  Would the smart start keep overall amperage down or does it only work for the initial startup of the unit?  What are prices for this unit?

May 31, 2011
9:59 am
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Francois said:

Dear Steve,

do you have drawings of your installations in catamaran with 2 separate units?...Sorry...No drawings on stuff I've done...


I guess the compressors are in the engine rooms (together if single pump) or separate (one in each engine room), what is the best installation?...They don't have to be located in the same engine room, but if using a single pump you again need a pump relay & water must be run to the opposite location for the other system...

A 2 pump system gives redundancy, but with your power constraints it may not be an option...


Where are the blowers installed? in lockers? behind walls? under settee?...Any of these locations are fine...Just consider the ease of your duct runs & service of that unit in the given location...


Is it recommended to use tees on air ducts course to spread cold in different rooms (galley+cabin)?…Yes…These are what we recommend and carry (Click on PDF catalog once there) ** you don't have permission to see this link **

 

** you don't have permission to see this link **

 

** you don't have permission to see this link **

 

Bring on any more questions  Wink

 

Steve~

May 31, 2011
3:11 am
Francois
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Dear Steve,

do you have drawings of your installations in catamaran with 2 separate units?

I guess the compressors are in the engine rooms (together if single pump) or separate (one in each engine room), what is the best installation?

Where are the blowers installed? in lockers? behind walls? under settee?

Is it recommended to use tees on air ducts course to spread cold in different rooms (galley+cabin)?

If the blower spread in different rooms, where is the best place for the return grille, in which area (cabin or galley)?

How long air ducts can reach for a 10K? And with how many tees ?

Also, I looked at the air filter/purifier with UV lamps, I wonder how often it needs to be cleaned in very humid weather ?

 Is it truly efficient against mildew? Can it be used only with the blower fonction without compressor running?

regards,

Francois,

PS: I hope I am not annoying with all my questions....Cry

May 30, 2011
10:17 am
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Francois said:

Hi Steve,

 I am still wavering between different options,

1° option: I am really interested in the idea to have 2 separate blowers TVE8 connected to a single EQ16 split unit:

-providing a better distribution of cool air in the cata

-2 8k blowers will be less noisy than a singe 16K, correct?...Likely true but with todays digital controls & programmable low fan speeds it's not really an issue...

-I will use smaller air ducts, grilles and 8K blowers are more compact than 16K...Yes to both statements...

-FLA unit+2blowers=4.3+2*0.83=5.96amps=1371w at 230v/60Hz

BUT, there is something strange in the spec : TVE8 FLA is higher than TVE16 !! (0.83 for 8K and 0.78 for 16K).

Is it a mistake?...Yes I see that...I would say that it must be a Typo, but can't confirm that till the factory opens tomorrow (It's a Holiday here today)

 

2°)Another option: is to have 2 independent EQ10 each connected to a single TVE10 blower:

-better flexibility: I could run only 1 unit at a time when PV charging (anchored) or weak charging rate, and both units when ashore or motor-sailing or good charging rate

-I could use a single pump for the 2 units, correct?...Yes with the installation of a pump relay...You would use the PR3X : ** you don't have permission to see this link **

-the units could have a staged start when both running, correct?...Yes & No...The blowers do not sequentially start...They will always start together per system...But will start at a different time than the pump...The compressors can be set to stage start...but will only do that if there has been a power interruption...It is possible (but unlikely) that they may try to start to start together when cycling on the thermostat...

-1 unit running : FLA 1 EQ10 + 1 TVE10=2.6+0.61=3.21amps=738w  at 230v/60Hz (less pump, which is really acceptable for the inverter !)

-2 units running at the same time: 738*2=1477w (less pump/s which is still acceptable for the inverter )

BUT the thing is: could I start the second unit while the first is allready running, using my 2000w inverter ?

 If I use smart start device, I have rated that: 35% of EQ10 LRA=22*35%=7.7amps=1771w inrush power added to 738w gives 2509w (lees pumps), which may be critical for the inverter...Yes but remember...Not all will in-rush at the same time during a normal start...Blowers can be set to run all the time at reduced speed (automatically) and thus reduced amperage draw when the cabin is to temp....In your application I would not program the control/s for the fans to cycle with the compressors...

Second option gives more flexibility but is the more expensive, all the more if I have to get a more powerfull inverter...You will also need 2 digital controls/keypads...

Have you ever installed this kind of installation ?...Yes...Many times, but not on an inverter...Though it is one of my preferred system setups....You are right...It is much more flexible, and will likely do a better job all around.

regards,

François

 

Steve~

May 30, 2011
2:17 am
Francois
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Hi Steve,

 I am still wavering between different options,

1° option: I am really interested in the idea to have 2 separate blowers TVE8 connected to a single EQ16 split unit:

-providing a better distribution of cool air in the cata

-2 8k blowers will be less noisy than a singe 16K, correct?

-I will use smaller air ducts, grilles and 8K blowers are more compact than 16K

-FLA unit+2blowers=4.3+2*0.83=5.96amps=1371w at 230v/60Hz

BUT, there is something strange in the spec : TVE8 FLA is higher than TVE16 !! (0.83 for 8K and 0.78 for 16K).

Is it a mistake?

 

2°)Another option: is to have 2 independent EQ10 each connected to a single TVE10 blower:

-better flexibility: I could run only 1 unit at a time when PV charging (anchored) or weak charging rate, and both units when ashore or motor-sailing or good charging rate

-I could use a single pump for the 2 units, correct?

-the units could have a staged start when both running, correct?

-1 unit running : FLA 1 EQ10 + 1 TVE10=2.6+0.61=3.21amps=738w  at 230v/60Hz (less pump, which is really acceptable for the inverter !)

-2 units running at the same time: 738*2=1477w (less pump/s which is still acceptable for the inverter )

BUT the thing is: could I start the second unit while the first is allready running, using my 2000w inverter ?

 If I use smart start device, I have rated that: 35% of EQ10 LRA=22*35%=7.7amps=1771w inrush power added to 738w gives 2509w (lees pumps), which may be critical for the inverter...

Second option gives more flexibility but is the more expensive, all the more if I have to get a more powerfull inverter...

Have you ever installed this kind of installation ?

regards,

François

May 26, 2011
10:20 am
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Steve Pooler
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Francois said:

Steve,

I checked the VTD16  and EQ16 spec sheets, it appears that EQ16+blower draws less than VTD16:

-VTD16 5.1amps + blower0.78amps= 5.88 amps…No…The Vector Turbo Self Contained unit is FLA rated as all in one…Blower & Compressor = 5.10 amps…

Very close to the Split system…and the difference was likely a small voltage difference at the time each was tested/rated.

 

-EQ16 4.1 amps+blower TVE16 0.78amps=5.08 amps…Yes correct…They don't rate "Split Systems" as all in one because you could use two or more air handlers to equal the Btu of the compressor…More air handlers may mean more amps total because of the multiple blower motors.

 

Maybe I misunderstood but the blower FLA line is seperate from the VTD16 FLA.

Do you confirm ?

François

 

Remember though…No matter which system, Self Contained or Split…You must add pump amperage to the system total…But, They don't all start at the same time, so the surge (in-rush) amperage is reduced…

 

Instead of 3 (or more) motors starting at once…They are staged as Pump first, Blower/s next, then Compressor…Well depending on control model...The blower/s & pump could reverse in order but you get the idea...

 

Steve~

May 26, 2011
12:11 am
Francois
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Steve,

I checked the VTD16  and EQ16 spec sheets, it appears that EQ16+blower draws less than VTD16:

-VTD16 5.1amps + blower0.78amps= 5.88 amps

-EQ16 4.1 amps+blower TVE16 0.78amps=5.08 amps

Maybe I misunderstood but the blower FLA line is seperate from the VTD16 FLA.

Do you confirm ?

François

May 21, 2011
12:08 pm
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Steve Pooler
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Guess I should eat a little crow here...

Well...Just went back & reviewed your posts & noticed your limit of 5000 watts for 5 seconds...(guess I missed that before)

That will probably scratch the 20 or 24 K idea...And it really does limit you to a 12K system if we go by the lock rotor figures as start up amps, and subtract 65% for SmartStart...

Still...I know I have started a older 16K unit with standard (not SmartStart) start capacitor & relay reliably, on a Heart 2000 watt inverter in a 37' Hunter...But wouldn't want to advise you to go more than what the figures tell....

Yes it's my feeling that "Regular" starting amps will be lower than LRA...But again I'd hate to see you get equipment all the way down to Tahiti, install it & not have it work...The SmartStart does also take about 10 starts to calibrate itself to the system...

I will say that with the Marine Air controls...The pump & fan start before the compressor, so that would be a plus over the Cruisair controls which start the fan first, but the pump starts at the same time as the compressor.

Taking all that into consideration...It's your call...Sorry if I mislead...  Embarassed

 

Steve~

May 21, 2011
6:48 am
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Francois said:

Dear Steve,

I looked at the Emerald EQ16 condenser which draws only 4.3 amps at 230v/60hz ! It's even less than the vector unit (5.1)!

It might be a better option for me. I could connect 2 evaporators/blowers units , one at each side of the galley to have a better distribtution in cabins located below, in each hull. Is it possible?

Tell me if it's better to have 2 separate evaporators or a single one with multiple air ducts.

I didn't find the evaporator that could match with the EQ 16 unit.

Also how can you explain the amp draw difference between EQ and Vector units for same capacity ? Are the compressor or heat exchanger differents?

regards,

François.

Francois~

I wouldn't get too excited about the lower amp draw of a Emerald series condensing unit…Remember the blower amperage is not figured into that spec.

Also if you use 2 air handlers (which is good) you need to figure that second blower amperage, and they need to match total Btu of the condensing unit…So you would either need two 8K's…a 10 and a 6K…or even a 12 & a 4K…

The Emerald series TurboVaps are so new…I guess they have not posted them on the site yet but here is PDF lit.

** you don't have permission to see this link **

Might also look at stepping up to a 20 or 24K condensing unit (with SmartStart added of course)…Then you could have two 10 or 12K air handlers…

Here is the specs on the Multi Ton condensing units…A 45' Cat can be a lot of boat to cool…

** you don't have permission to see this link **

 

Just providing options & specs so that you can figure your loads…

Before we get excited here...Please See page 2...

 

Steve~

May 21, 2011
12:18 am
Francois
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Dear Steve,

I looked at the Emerald EQ16 condenser which draws only 4.3 amps at 230v/60hz ! It's even less than the vector unit (5.1)!

It might be a better option for me. I could connect 2 evaporators/blowers units , one at each side of the galley to have a better distribtution in cabins located below, in each hull. Is it possible?

Tell me if it's better to have 2 separate evaporators or a single one with multiple air ducts.

I didn't find the evaporator that could match with the EQ 16 unit.

Also how can you explain the amp draw difference between EQ and Vector units for same capacity ? Are the compressor or heat exchanger differents?

regards,

François.

May 19, 2011
10:11 am
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Steve Pooler
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Seems like you have done your homework Francois  Wink

Just a few things:

Hope you are not planning on installing this Turbo self contained unit in an engine room ?

Or were you considering a split system ? (you mentioned you now have a split system)

My figures on power usage are a bit lower on the Turbo than what you quote, but they are not with the pump added...

The 12K 230 volt unit is not available with SmartStart installed from the factory (only the 115 volt 16K unit shows pricing)

Apparently they don't feel it's needed on the 230 volt units, or smaller than 16K 115 volt units, but in your application I do feel it would be a plus. 

The SmartStart can be ordered & added at the time of install ($450 added to price)

I would recommend that you stay with the 230 volt 60Hz output of the inverter and go with the 230 volt 50/60 Hz unit.

You might also consider...The extra 4K Btu of a 16K unit may help with pull down time and shorter run cycles to reduce overall power usage even though it draws slightly more power...It's not much more money for the unit, But the 16K unit will require larger duct than the 12K unit (7" for the 16K vs 6" for the 12K)...The 16 will also require the next larger size pump 250 GPH for the 12K...500 GPH for the 16K...The larger pump will draw .5 amps more...My slide rule Btu calculator shows you needing 16K for 110 square ft of "Above Deck" cabin...

Do you have a preference on brand...Marine Air or Cruisair ?

The only difference is in the board that is installed on the unit at the factory for the control (keypad/display) brand...Cruisair & Marine Air controls differ in operation & programming, but the actual units are identical otherwise & built in the same plant with the same parts...

Here are the Cruisair controls available: ** you don't have permission to see this link **

Here are the Marine Air controls: ** you don't have permission to see this link **

The Marine Air Passport I/O & Cruisair Q3 are the cheapest options...

Steve~

May 18, 2011
11:19 pm
Francois
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Dear Steve,

Right now I use a 12kbtu split system house style modified with sea water heat exchanger. I had the compressor and condenser in the engine room (insulated, no noise) and a single evaporator in the galley. I could run it only ashore.

It's an old generation compressor with 407R gas but  was enough  for the galley and one cabin. 

It worked well untill gas leaked.

I don't want to fix it since it drawed too much when starting and tripped off the inverter when I tried to run at anchor.

Infact I am looking for a way to have Aircon at anchor and without running any engine.

Reply on your questions:

Battery  bank  600 amps at 12v

Inverter output 230v 60 hz (but can be modified to 50Hz) 2500 w (peak power 5000w 5seconds)

Square area of the galley to be cooled is about 110sqft with a lot of big windows ( shaded by outside covers)

I would feel the need to start the Ac as soon as galley temp rise above 90°f and woul like to maintain below 82°f

No other loads on inverter during AC operation time.

 

My idea is that the battery bank will act as a baffle and the main production from solar PV's will go straight to the inverter (the current use the shortest path). So in my mind the battery capacity is not an issue as long as I will run the airco only during the sunniest hours from 10AM to 3PM. Of course I have a precise device to check the battery charge and capacity remain, and inverter has a security and shut off if battery voltage is too low to preserve them from total discharge.

Batteries can be charged at the same time when production is above inverter load and DC loads or outside this period.

If I use your 12k model which draws maxi 1100w (including compressor, blower and pump), I think I will have extra power for battery charging especially between 10am and 15pm on the sunniest days. When the weather is cloudy it's also cooler so the operation time will be reduced, there is a direct relation between sun (production), temperature and operation time.

Yes, I have an adress in Carson, Los Angeles (freight forwarder).

regards, Francois.

May 18, 2011
9:30 am
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Steve Pooler
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Thank You Francois…It really helps to know what you have, and what you are trying to accomplish~

Yes, I have seen it done, and have done it myself..But not so much with Solar Panels as a main charging source…

A 12 or 16K unit, Starting (with SmartStart) and running on that inverter should not be a problem…I have started & run a older 16K unit (draws more amperage than today's Turbo units) with a standard start capacitor/relay (not a SmartStart which is much more effective) on a 2000 watt Heart inverter (but also with no other loads on the inverter at the time)

But…Running for long enough to cool the cabin intended to a comfortable temp/humidity level on 600 Ah of batteries might be an issue, even with Solar Power backing it up.

Most battery manufactures don''t recommend discharging batteries below 50% charge state…So that really only gives you around 300 Ah to work with, and likely less depending on the bank's charge state when you start the A/C… 

We need some more info to do some basic calculations…(And maybe you have already done this?)

  • Is the battery bank that supplies the inverter configured as 12 or 24 volt ? (what feeds the inverter)
  • What is the power that the inverter outputs 115 or 2?? volt…50 or 60 Hz ? (I know what you said for power grid but )
  • What is the square footage of the cabin to be cooled, and is there a lot of window area ?
  • What cabin temp would you likely feel the need to start the A/C ?
  • What cabin temp would you like to maintain ? (This & above 2 will relate to how much/long the A/C will run)
  • Would there be any other loads on the inverter besides A/C during it's operation time ?

The other question is will there be enough sunlight left in the day after A/C shutdown to bring that bank back up to full charge before the next day's usage ?…You have stated your charge rate (1200 watts nominal) but the other figures above, along with hours of sunlight left in the day will help us guesstimate the answer…

Lastly…Do you have a US address that I could ship to if we end up doing some business ? (My distributor will not ship to addresses out of the 48 states)

Though not as Beautiful as Tahiti I'm Sure…Regards from Sunny St. Petersburg Fl.  Cool

 

Steve~

May 18, 2011
2:00 am
Francois
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Dear Steve,

I am on a 45ft catamaran in Tahiti, French Polynesia. Here the grid voltage is 230v 60Hz. My project is to run an airco unit at mooring without generator or engine alternator, only with solar panels ! Infact I intend to install 18 PV of 135 w each so 2430w peak power and at least 1200 nominal power even under cloudy weather. I have a 2500w Victron inverter and 600amps gel baterry bank.

I will run the airco only during daytime and the sunniest and (hottest) hours, not at night.

The unit I am looking for is the most economical and power efficient (12kbtu or 16kbtu) and without a high surge starting power that could trip off the inverter (smart start device is very welcome!).

So what would you suggest ? Have you ever heard or seen similar projects ? Do you think It's trully possible ?

sunny regards from Tahiti!

François

May 17, 2011
7:30 am
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Steve Pooler
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The amp draw reduction is 65% of normal starting amperage (and each unit will differ) without SmartStart…Lock Rotor is the amperage the compressor would draw if "Locked" – Stuck or Seized…

Francois~

You have not said where you are located, or what the power supply is where you are, so I can't really answer with a recommendation....I can offer this Field Notice about compressor voltage in the below link.

** you don't have permission to see this link **

 

Steve~

May 17, 2011
4:29 am
Francois
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So what is the effective reduction of amp draw at start up ? Is it 65 % of LRA?

For example  model VTD 12k 230v 60 hz would draw 28/1.65=17 amps at start up, right?

Infact I am interested in the VTD 12 k 230v 60Hz so, the capacity would really be 12k ?

Do you have a package with this model and the smart start device installed, pump with premium accessories in 230v 60hz ?

regards,

Francois

May 15, 2011
11:03 am
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Steve Pooler
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Francois said:

Hi Steve,

Does the Smart start device work with newer turbo 240v units ? 50 or 60 hz?

I was said that:

"Not recommended for 240v 50 Hz

Only recommended for hard starting older units."
 
Do you confirm?
What are the benefits for 240v units?
 
regards,
Francois
 

Here are the specs for the available SmartStarts:

Technical Specifications for SmartStart™
Model
Voltage (volts) /
Frequency (Hz)
Supported Compressor 
Capacity Range (BTUs)
4220040 115/60 5K–18K
4220043 208–240/50–60 12K–30K
4220044 208–240/50–60 36K–60K
SmartStart™
 Accessories
4220045 Optional Mounting Tray
Notes:
• Maximum continuous current for all models: 32 Amps.
• Typical start surge reduction as compared to compressor locked-rotor amperage (LRA): 65
 
Hope that helps...Maybe they don't make one for straight 50Hz equipment yet...
The 50/60 Hz equipment that we use here in the US will run on 50 Hz, but at a 17% reduction of capacity.
If you want full capacity on 220 volt 50Hz power you must order the unit for that.
 
 
Steve~
May 14, 2011
2:24 pm
Francois
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Hi Steve,

Does the Smart start device work with newer turbo 240v units ? 50 or 60 hz?

I was said that:

"Not recommended for 240v 50 Hz

Only recommended for hard starting older units."
 
Do you confirm?
What are the benefits for 240v units?
 
regards,
Francois