Let’s start with the basics…

Seawater flow thru your A/C system is primary…

Without water flow….You have NO cooling !

Service people on the docks (at least the better ones) can walk down the dock during the summer and tell which boats they are likely to be getting a call from next just by the flow of water (or lack of) going overboard on each boat….Lack of seawater flow can cause other problems besides loss of cooling…

• Lack of seawater flow causes high system operating pressures
• This, in turn increases the amperage draw from the A/C unit
• Possibly leading to: Burnt up wiring at switches or shore cord ends

Many of these symptoms can stem back to the cause of low water flow. If the flow is allowed to remain restricted,  compressor failure can also occur in some older systems.

Different than land based systems, Marine systems installed below decks have no fan to remove the heat from the refrigerant…They use water to carry away the heat for many reasons…

• Water is more efficient than air as a heat exchange medium
• Size of a unit with air cooling is much larger, thus making air cooling impractical on boats
• Air cooled units require a exit path for the heat so that the space they are in does not continue to heat up as they run, thus reducing their efficiency further

As you see from the picture above….It’s an example of a seawater strainer to a system that has seen little love, and this system of course did not cool.

Every boat owner should become familiar with their boats overboard flow rate when the system is clean, and become accustomed to glancing at it every chance they get…Once you have established what is normal for your boat, a simple glance may be enough to recognize a mounting problem, and thus head off a ruined trip due to the loss of A/C…

The first question a tech may/should ask when he gets a call Is…”How is the seawater flow ?”

More frequently than not…The owners answer is he thinks it ok, or Yes it’s flowing…Only for us to arrive to find not much more than a trickle….All this is ok for us as techs…but if you would like to save that expensive service call…Keeping your strainer from looking like the picture is a great start !

Seawater strainer maintenance is not hard to do…But of course every boat or installation is different. You should also know that the more the system/s run…The more frequently you will need to clean the strainer. During the winter months here in central Florida we find that due to cooler water (marine organisms seem to grow more slowly in cooler water) and obviously less usage you may not need to clean the strainer but once a month….Summer is a different story !

Depending on where your boat is moored, Tidal flow, Water Temp, and Running the system/s 24/7 can require cleaning the strainer as often as every week…I have even seen worst case situations where a boat may be moored in a pass with much tidal flow (and grass flats nearby) causing the grass to “Tumble” in the water down to where the thru hull is located, thus requiring the strainer basket to be emptied in a matter of hours…

Steve~

Not "Good" Ice

Though there can be many reasons for system icing…There are a few that the DIY boater can rule out before calling the service guy ( I can discuss other reasons in the forum but here are a few of the basic answers)

• Direct Expansion A/C (as opposed to Chilled Water) systems rely heavily on Air Flow across the evaporator coil in order to pick up the designed amount of heat the system was engineered to remove (BTU) and any loss of that designed air flow can cause the system to Ice.

Regardless of freon charge (explained later) the system must first and foremost have the correct amount of air flow…So air flow should be the first thing to check…Below are some reasons for reduced air flow…

• Dirty or clogged Return Air Filters…Some systems may have two filters installed…One at the Return grill, and a second that shipped with the unit on the evaporator fins ( folks tend to forget this one, or never knew it was there in the first place)
• Dirty or clogged evaporator coil/s due to not cleaning, or No/Poor return air filters installed.
• Fan Speed Adjusted Too Low (Sometimes done to attain a quiet blower)
• Undersized Return or Supply Ducting for the BTU System installed…This was the installers responsibility to size correctly, but all too often there is not sufficient space for where they want to run to size it properly…Thus a problem for the systems life, which is most always shortened dramatically from this practice…They should find another way, or reduce the size of the system to match the installation…Blowers can only move rated flow thru the proper sized duct.

Another reason which sometimes is overlooked…

• Very Cold Cabin…The colder the cabin…The less heat there is to pick up…Thus more Air Flow is needed to increase the amount of heat (that’s now not there) being picked up…A/C systems are called “High Temp” systems…they are designed to do exactly as the name implies…Air Condition…Not Refrigerate…That’s what Refrigerators & Freezers are designed to do…Your A/C system is not designed to cool much below 68 degrees F…Though it will try to do so if you ask it…
• Most of the newer Digital Cabin Controls have algorithms to “help” with this by shutting off the compressor for short periods until the desired room setpoint is attained, but they are not defrost cycles with coil heaters like you might find in a system designed to run at lower temps.

Last but Not least is…

• Low Refrigerant Charge causes Icing…You Ask Huh ???…Why would low freon cause it to ice ?…I thought the more freon the colder…Not So with refrigerants…I’ll try to explain briefly…

Pressure & Temperature Automatically Correspond with Refrigerants…The Lower the Pressure…The Lower the Temperature of the refrigerant ( and Vise Verse) Regardless of how much is in there…I’ll leave it at that for now but can explain further in another article, or in the forum if requested.

• The question here is…Why is the system low on freon ???

These systems are sealed, and should not require seasonal charging, like automotive systems that tend to leak because they have rubber hoses, o-rings & compressor shaft seals…These systems are all copper tubing, with soldered & mechanical flare joints.

• Did someone let out freon because the unit was running high pressure ? (usually an indication of  loss of seawater flow, or a dirty condenser)
• Has the system started leaking due to a poor connection (Flare or otherwise) or maybe electrolysis eating away at solder joints ?

If So…Then the leak needs to be located & repaired to save burning up the compressor…The compressor is the heart of the system, it’s expensive, and relies on the proper amount of refrigerant return to stay cool…It will run Very Hot without enough Freon return regardless of seawater flow…and even if the system (air handler or tubing) is icing…The compressor will run hot from that lack of freon.

Hope this helps answer a few questions, but if not…Or if it creates more…Drop me a line (preferably in the forum so that others can benefit as well)  Always glad to answer.

Steve~

This is just a note to confirm that I offer FREE Troubleshooting help for your Marine A/C & Refrigeration issues…But I ONLY do this in the FORUM section…If you can’t take the time to register & ask in the FORUM…I usually won’t respond…(this section is not setup for dialog/discussion…it’s only setup for comments)

My only request in return is that you Consider me when buying replacement parts, or units…And that if local, you also consider my services….But how’s they saying go ?

No Purchase Necessary…That price can’t be beat at half the cost !!!

All you need to do is join & ask in the FORUM section most relative to your issue  http://marine-ac.com/forum/

Post your own title (thread) in the section that applies, and I’ll be happy to respond with my best honest advise…

Thanks Again,

Steve~

They do provide the same function as in home systems as they are designed to keep the temperature in the cabin/room at a selected temp within a few degrees…

But different than Home…They can (and most do nowadays) offer more/different features than we use at home depending on the type of marine control that is installed…We can cover some of those features here but first we need to define which type of control is installed…Although there have been and are many types and models of controls with several variations…

Lets first describe the most popular two main types…

Manual Controls…

The old standby that has been around for many years is the three knob manual control (non digital) it has/had 3 control knobs each with a different function & was/is available in either a vertical or horizontal, rectangular form factor…

The typical function of each knob was as follows…

• The first knob was a function knob with Off, Start (sometimes labeled Fan) and Run positions…

The functions of each position were pretty much self explanatory except that the Start/Fan position ran the fan but also started the seawater pump so that you could look over the side of the boat to verify it was pumping water before selecting Run.

The Run position sent power thru the thermostat which then would decide whether to start the compressor in the cool, or heat mode depending on cabin temp, and the position of the thermostat knob…(more on that in a minute)

• The second knob was a Variable Fan Speed control (not usually available at home)

It was useful at night for lowering blower noise to watch TV etc…(how low was low was adjustable but the control needed to be removed to adjust this parameter with a small screwdriver)

• The third knob was the thermostat…

This was the most misunderstood function of this control because it had no temp numbers (It was also the hardest to explain to folks)  Most would just crank it to it’s coldest setting thinking that the further they turned it…The colder the air would come out…That’s true in a way, but it’s not a function of the control, and A/C does not work that way…I will try to explain…

Regardless of control setting or type…All R-22 A/C systems work on a 15 to 18 degree temp exchange design…Meaning that the air coming out of the discharge grill should be 15 to 18 degrees colder than what is going into the return air grill (if it’s more, or less than that, there is likely a problem with the system or installation)

So if it’s 90 degrees in the space being cooled…don’t expect much colder than 75-72 degree air coming out the discharge with any R-22 A/C system…But as the room/cabin cools, that exchange is maintained, and the air continues to come out colder by 15 to 18 degrees of what goes in….Lower room temp=lower discharge air temp.

The thermostat tells the compressor when to run or not run, and energizes the reversing valve when reverse cycle heat is needed to maintain cabin temp of the setting on the dial (position of the arrow)…Generally speaking…A properly calibrated t-stat set with the arrow pointed vertical should maintain around 70-74 degrees cabin temp…Anything to the right is a colder cabin, and to the left of vertical is warmer…The T-Stat will allow the compressor to run until the cabin gets to the selected temp (on the knob) at which point it cuts power to the compressor until the cabin either warms or cools a few degrees, at which point it then again sends power back to the compressor/reversing valve as needed to bring the cabin back to selected temp.

These controls offered very little in system protection and thus it was not advisable to run the A/C system unattended for very long.

Digital Controls…

Started hitting the market in the mid 80′s…They at first like any new product, had a few weaknesses and thus some early problems, but as they matured they have now become the standard, and are very reliable…

They also allow the marine A/C manufacturers to offer extended warranty periods when installed with new equipment because of the system fault protection/shutdown features they provide, along with the many other benefits/features…I can’t count the compressors & pumps they have saved for my customers…Many of them don’t realize it either, but they do help immensely…

The features & protections offered by these newer microprocessor based cabin/system controls are likely too many to mention here but I will list some of the more important below…

Protection:

• High Pressure Shutdown…Loss of Seawater flow…This can save a compressor and or seawater pump failure, from running without water. (Did you check that strainer & thru hull ?)
• Low Pressure Shutdown…Loss of Freon or a dirty air filter…Can also save a compressor….
• Low AC power Shutdown…One of the worst things for a compressor is low voltage.
• Seawater Pump shuts off with compressor (on single system boats) so that pump can be saved from no water burnout of pump head (this will also protect pump if only one system is run while away on multi system boats)
• Programmable Time Delays…So that multiple systems don’t all start at once when shifting from Shore to Gen or vise verse causing tripped breakers and/or heavy surges.

Features:

• Digital Display of Setpoint (Temp you want the cabin to be) & Actual Temp of that cabin.
• Much more accurate temp control. (when compared to the 3 knob control or others)
• Automatic Fan Speed control…Fan speed can be controlled by how far away you are from setpoint…Manual speed is also an option so that if you don’t want it to change it won’t.
• Ability to program Continuous or Intermittent Fan (Like the Auto fan feature at home)
• Humidity Control program…System can be activated to remove humidity only while away..This greatly reduces run time while keeping mold out (you probably won’t find this feature in most home controls)
• Some have IR remote control availability/operation.
• Some have networking ability…So that they can all be linked and controlled from a central (keypad) location, or from any individual control location aboard.

These are some of the most important features, but the controls are fully programmable for many more user adjustable functions (depending on model)

If you have one or more of these digital controls…The not so funny thing I find here in West Central Fl…Is that about 95% of the boats I go on have never had the digital controls setup for the boat/installation…

The A/C manufacturer has a set of Default settings they ship the controls programmed with…These are just that…Defaults that the manufacturer feels that all systems should operate safely with once installed…It’s generally thought that it’s the installers responsibility to perform the calibration…Unfortunately it’s likely that the boat builder or original installer did not do this for many reasons…One of which might be they don’t know about them ?…

Anyway as I said…Most of the boats I go on still have the factory defaults set in the controls, and a lot of these boats are many years old…They are by no means the best settings for each installation or system, and again if you have these controls, you may find that you will enjoy your system/s much more if you get your trusty A/C guy out to to go thru them…Or get the manual out yourself to take a look….

Many also ask if the newer digital controls can be retrofit to take the place of others…Yes they can…I have installed them on just about every application of marine A/C made in the last 40 years…Yeah…That’s longer than I have been working on marine A/C but I do/have seen some old stuff still in operation…and Usually after we install one on a boat and calibrate it…The owner almost always wants another…

Thanks for reading, and Comments are always welcome in the forum…

Steve~

Here’s what I can share at this point from the Cruisair/Marine Air perspective & what I have been told.

Self Contained R-22 units are no longer in production…sort of…

Since 417a is a drop in replacement for R-22 you can get the R-22 units (but they are shipping charged with R-417a)

We are told that the R-417a drop in replacement refrigerant for R-22 is 17% less efficient than the R-22 in the same unit (like running 60Hz equipment on 50Hz power)

So if you bought a new R-417a unit…You can evacuate the R-417a and re-charge that unit with R-22 to realize the same performance as a R-22 unit that was purchased before the production change…

You can also evacuate a older R-22 system & recharge with 417a…But the 17% performance drop still applies…

R-22 refrigerant should still be available for quite some time yet…But…The price will climb pretty quickly.

Edit:  5/1/2011…2020 is slated to be the end of production of R-22 in the US…None will be imported either…But at that point, if you still have an operational R-22 system, it can be evacuated and re-charged with R-417a.

The new R-410a cannot be used in a R-22/R417a system even with evacuation…It’s not compatible with the oil in the 22 system & the pressures will run too high in that system (metering devise is not set for it either)

My distributor has about 3 months worth of sales of units with R-22 available, but after they are gone he will only stock the new R-410a units….And is now only ordering Self Contained unit with the new R410a.

5/11/2011…R-22/R417 self contained units are no longer in stock.

Split or Remote systems are a whole different story…

One thing they are the same in is that none of the existing systems can run the new R-410a, but they can run the R-417a with the 17% drop in performance….but the problem is bigger with small split systems.

Typically the 16K & smaller split systems have always used piston type compressors as opposed to the rotary type that have been used in self contained units for many years now…

The reason for this is that the rotary type compressor does not lend itself well to long copper line runs…
Rotary crankcases don’t hold enough oil for the migration of oil with the refrigerant throughout the longer line runs in split systems…
It’s my understanding that the rotary can run out of oil before it has a chance to return with the refrigerant, and thus can ruin itself in a split system from lack of lubrication.

The compressor manufacturers are being forced to phase out production of the lower efficiency piston compressors by the EPA or whomever…

5/1/2011…We still have no info on when this might happen but as of this date…Replacement R-22 split system units with the older piston compressors are still in production…But only ship with R-417a which can be evacuated after installation & replaced with R-22 to maintain efficiency.

Scroll compressors would be a great alternative, but as of yet…The compressor manufacturers have not developed Scroll compressors in the smaller sizes that are required for our smaller Marine split systems (the larger than 16k marine units are using scrolls now)
I guess they figure the Marine market is too small to develop new small scrolls for, and that the rotary’s are fine for the home window unit market (which is what the the rotary’s were developed for)

I know that Dometic Cruisair/Marine Air has been testing small splits using rotary’s for quite some time now…So far they aren’t saying much…

Until then…They are only offering the same piston type smaller split systems and shipping with R-417a (the drop in replacement for R-22) to meet the new regulations….The Larger splits (over 16K) will be available as either R-417a (mainly for replacements of the older R-22 units) or the new R-410a units, but to utilize R-410a condensing unit you must also change the air handler…No need for new copper tubing runs.

Dometic is now offering their new “Emerald Series” split/remote systems with rotary compressors (16K & below) Also with  TXV’s (thermostatic expansion valve) metering devises at both the condensing unit & air handler (2 TXV’s)…Larger than 16K “Emerald Series” systems are Scroll compressors.

Steve~

First & Foremost are Filters…and not just the Sea Strainer I talked about in my last article….But the ones in the Return Air path too…

Direct Expansion A/C (as opposed to Chilled Water) systems rely heavily on good air flow to keep from icing up in the cool mode (Low pressure) or shutting off due to High pressure in the heating mode…

Generally speaking…Most boats may have two Return Air Filters per system or control…Some have more if there are more than one air handler on that system (compressor)

If you have a small cabin adjacent to another that the fan operates off the control in the other cabin (or just has a speed control installed in that small cabin) this may be one instance….

The trick to finding air handlers is to first look for the return air grill…

Once you have located the Return air Grill (also a likely spot for the first filter) it should be removed…Check if a filter is installed on the back side of the grill…If so remove it and set it aside…

Now with a flashlight…Look into that hole to see the path the air would take…At the end of that path should be the air handlers location…You may have to open another cabinet, or locker to gain access to that location, and boat builders can be very inventive in placing them in out of the way places…Ones that sometimes seem impossible to get to, but in most cases a panel can be removed for access…Here is where the second filter is located…On the aluminum fins of the evaporator coil…

All major manufacturers of marine A/C have shipped their units with a filter installed at the factory for some time now…If there is not one there…It has likely been removed after the system was installed…

I have serviced boats that the owners never knew of this factory installed filter…Or the air handler’s location for that matter…Thus when I removed the filter it looked like a piece of carpet…We all know Air does not flow thru carpet too well…

The manufactures install them there not knowing if a filter is going to be utilized in the grill at system installation…and If it is a clean path to the air handler (one that is not likely to get dust from another path) this filter can sometimes be discarded if it is tough to access, but it is better to have both in most cases…

In boats with multiple controls (more than one system) follow the above procedure till you have all the filters in hand…Take them out to the dock and have fun with the water hose…That is unless someone has installed the throw away fiberglass/paper filters, in which case I would recommend you replace them with some foam filter material that you might find at your marine A/C dealer…Or what Home Depot/Lowes etc…offers for home window A/C units.

Now either wait for them to dry…Or shake them out and re-install…A little water on them will not hurt a thing…

If you can get a good look at the aluminum fins…Check to see that they are not also clogged…If they are…That’s another story, and it’s probably time to call you’re A/C guy to clean them because he has access to cleaning solutions that work real well for this…and also likely has the equipment to do the job right…With less mess…

If you want to clean them yourself with a squirt bottle & garden hose…He may even sell you some cleaner, or you can try Home Depot…However what they offer never seems to work as well as what he gets from the wholesale A/C supply house…

Before you close the cabinet back up you should also check the condition/operation of the condensate drain…Especially after washing the coil…All that stuff that got washed off is now in the condensate pan and could have clogged the drain fitting/s or hose…

Best way to test this is with a quart or two of tap water…You can add some bleach/Lysol/whatever to kill bacteria…But first I would run some plain water into the drain pan to find out if the drain is clogged…This way you won’t have to suck out the bleach water to avoid it dripping onto surfaces when you remove the hose to blow it out…

Please Note: If you have to blow out the hose or fittings, and the only way you have to do so is by mouth…Try to find a clean piece of garden hose or the like to attach to the existing fitting or hose…These hoses are where bacteria like the Legionaires Virus live…You don’t want the old hose, or the condensate water to touch or enter your mouth!!!

Once you are done…We are ready to start up the system/s…

This is a good time for you to check the seawater pump & its pump relay operation (for boats with more than one A/C system supplied seawater by a single pump)

A seawater pump relay is a box connected to the pump that receives a signal from each separate unit…and then tells the pump to start pumping seawater when each, or any unit calls for it (starts to run)

They are easy to verify if they are working properly just by starting one system…Waiting for the compressor to come on…and then either looking over the side of the boat for water discharge, or if the pump actually runs by hearing it start…

Once you verify that that system started the pump…Switch the control off for that system…Wait for the pump to stop…Then follow the same procedure for each system by itself…You don’t want to run more than one system at a time for this test as it may be one of the other systems that brings the pump on…

If one of the systems does not bring the pump on…There is a problem with the pump relay box…Over the years there have been many kinds/models of pump relays, and to say how to troubleshoot each here would be kinda lengthy…However if you feel you have a problem, I will be happy to discuss your model/issue in the blog if you like…Otherwise you probably need to call Ole Faithful A/C Guy…

Now that we have verified Good seawater flow overboard and pump relay operation…We can run all systems…Do so for about half an hour….

Now we need to locate each compressor…

There are basically two kinds of direct expansion marine A/C systems.

• Self Contained units…sometimes called Stowaways or Cabin Mates…These are all in one units where the compressor, condenser, evaporator & blower are all on the same base…They are usually located behind the return air grille, and under a settee or in a closet…They are more like a window unit than central A/C…As the compressor is almost in the living space and thus you can get a bit more noise…Though now days the newer rotary compressors are pretty quiet.
• Split Systems…Sometimes called Remote…These are more like the central systems you may have at home…In that the compressor & condenser are “Remotely” located and connected to the Air handler/evaporator section by copper tubing to carry the refrigerant…These systems are quieter, and have more flexibility in that they can have more than one air handler/evaporator running off one compressor…and thus allow for installation in smaller cabinets, with smaller units, to reduce air noise even more…The total of air handler BTU just must pretty closely match the condensing units capacity….

Now that we have located the Compressor/s and they have run for a half hour…Be certain they are still running in cool mode…If not…Lower the temp setting of your control (t-stat)

Now locate the seawater condenser…It’s the tubes that horizontally (most are horizontal but some are vertical) wrap around the top of the compressor (condensing) unit…there should be at least two water hoses connected to it (some have 4) and with the palm of your hand…Grab the top coil….It should be Warm…but not Hot…

If it is Hot in more than one place…The unit is not performing as it should and is probably drawing more amperage than designed…

A couple of likely reasons…

• Seawater flow is not up to spec…Look for restrictions
• Seawater condenser is dirty…Needs to be flushed with an acid solution…Similar to the radiator in your car…At any rate…Not enough heat is being removed from the refrigerant…
• Not likely…But an overcharge of refrigerant…Maybe that last A/C guy didn’t do so good?…Or was it a buddy that said he knew what to do?
• Even less likely…Someone replaced the seawater pump with one that doesn’t have enough GPH pumping capacity for the system…Maybe somebody’s buddy was trying to save him a buck or two…You may laugh, but I’ve seen that happen too…Hey…He meant well!
• Most of the above reasons are probably best to call the A/C guy…Not the buddy…However you can & I will walk you thru flushing a coil to remove the scale that acts like a insulating blanket preventing proper heat transfer…Just at another time…

This next test is mostly for owners of Split/Remote systems…

Most of the newer Self Contained systems use what is called a Rotary compressor…Some of the older ones are still around that use the older reciprocating (piston) type…and to determine which you have is hard to explain if you have never seen either…But the Rotary type is usually slightly taller, and a lot skinnier than the Piston type…Have you got a Fat compressor matey?

Anyway…A piston type compressor that is too hot to touch on top…Is likely low on Freon…Rotary’s run Hot but Piston’s do not…

If either type is Cold or sweating…That’s another set of possibilities…

• Lack of air flow due to…Dirty filters or coils…Hey I thought we did that?
• Overcharge of refrigerant…That buddy again?
• Ductwork that is too small (or even crushed due to the space it was run thru) to properly handle the flow of air that the system BTU requires…We could blame…But let’s not…It won’t do any good anyway, and it’s gonna get too in depth here…Again we can discuss it in the blog for each individual circumstance…
• Last but not least…In a split system…Multiple Air handlers that don’t add up to compressor/condensing unit BTU…We won’t go into that here either….

This is getting a bit long…So in closing…I hope I have helped some…I look forward to answering any questions that I might…

Think of you’re A/C guy this New Years…I’m sure he thinks of you too…I know I do…

Steve~

I started this site last year to “put my feelers out”  about what owners and captains may want to learn and share about marine  a/c.

The support has been more than I ever expected…

So… My New Year resolution to you is expand the site we created…Because of your feedback I am going to begin adding to my store to allow you to order most of the common Marine A/C system items that I found you’ve needed,  but until the store is fully operational…As always I’m here for you to contact…

Some important information…Sadly…Due to EPA regulations there will be no more R-22 systems/units produced in 2010…

• If you need to replace a R-22 condensing unit in an existing system…You will need to purchase a R-417A unit, evacuate your R-22 (which you would do anyway) and re-charge the system with R-417A (drop in replacement for R-22)…No need to change the air handler.
• For new installations (split system or self contained) the systems have been re-designed to operate with environmentally friendly R-410A which operates at much higher pressures that the existing R-22 or R-417A systems…These R-410A units can Not be paired with the older air handlers.

Your local A/C guy will know what to do & have the equipment to make the change.

Your comments & feedback are always welcome & appreciated…I need things to help me write…So ask away…It does stir the thoughts…

Clean Sea Strainers to All, and to All a Good Year…Think of the A/C/Heat/ Refer Guy…He Does You…

Steve~

Hi Mark…Don’t know if you are still watching this thread, or if you have seen my thread over in the “Introduce Yourself” forum but here’s my take…

It seems that when the system was flushed, that it was flushed just well enough to break loose some stuff…Now it is floating around in the hoses and randomly blocking flow where it now lodges from time to time…
Once the pump shuts off the water drains back, and with it the loose stuff moves…Only to lodge again maybe somewhere else when the pump starts again…

If the water flow does not look right to you (and you obviously have been watching it since new) then it is not right, and will continue to get worse…Changing the pump will not fix a thing unless the pump had a problem…It can only pump water thru unrestricted passages, and that water it can pump will re-direct to the un-restricted passages…Like said…Path of least resistance.

From descriptions here & in the thread I started…It seems the 459 has what I would call a odd or improper A/C plumbing/pump setup…

This happens sometimes with boat builders…Generally speaking…In my experience the only way to get them to make a change in a poor setup is for enough customers to have a problem and complain…No amount of prodding from us A/C guys ever seems to help in effecting that change…It’s a shame too because we are the ones dealing with this stuff everyday…They deal with building boats everyday…

So what is the fix ?…Well marine growth will always be a problem but there are a few things that can be done to help…

Over the years the A/C systems that boat builders install have gravitated to the Self Contained all in one units as opposed to the Split/Remote systems that most utilised for years…They don’t need guys with refrigerant certification to install or buy these All in One units…They are easier to install, and freon leaks in connections of copper tubing line runs are no longer something they need to worry about warrantying….All they have to do now is run power, water hoses from the pump, and duct…

The problem with this is the water runs are now much further than when the “Central” type systems were installed all in one location close to the pump…Back then we had very little growth problems (just scale buildup in condensers that was easy to remove) and flow was much easier to plan & maintain…

What I have found since this change is that the further, and or higher you pump seawater…The more problems you will have with growth, and it has also created the problems I describe below with using larger pumps…

Directing a pumps flow to units of varying distance & height for even flow to each…Is a challenge to say the least !
Generally their answer is to install an oversized pump in an attempt to brute force flow…

No I have not seen a 459 but it has been described as having two units on the bridge and 2 down below…I don’t care how they manifold this setup…It still going to be very hard to get the proper flow to each unit, and the least little restriction can and will upset any kind of balance they have designed into that system…The Pump has to overcome the height (Head) it needs to pump to the units on the bridge so it likely has been over sized just to do that with enough volume for those units…The remaining water can then supply the lower units…

Over sized pumps are never really the best answer over time (though it may be cheaper for them) because a over sized pump attempting to pump thru say four 5/8″ condensers (in this case) is (even when the system is clean) likely not pumping it’s rated flow which will cause it’s impeller to cavitate…This causes cavitation burns to the bronze impeller & pump housing…Thus causing premature pump head failure.

Again having not seen the install…My answer would be to install two pumps…One for the upper units, and one for the lower units…
They both could then be sized for the job presented, the systems & pumps would be much happier with less overall maintenance.

Steve~

Hi Steve, love your web site – lots of great info. ! Our company does a lot of yacht maintenance / mechanical preventive maintenance type stuff here in Wilmington, N.C. – my question is, do you have an opinion concerning back flushing the sea water lines on marine air conditioning systems ? That is, do you think there is any benefit to occasionally (2 or 3 times per season), removing the water discharge hose and connecting a dockside water hose to the unit and pumping water backwards through the system. I have talked with some individuals who believe that doing so helps to remove/reduce the amount of marine growth in the coils and hoses, eliminating the need for or reducing the frequency of acid cleaning. Any advice or opinions you can offer would be greatly appreciated

Bill

The original poster had a March magnetic drive pump that would not pump water, and after the usual back flush & priming sugguestions he could still not get it to pump water…Just before I read the thread he had found that either something had gotten past the strainer (or he didn't have one) and had lodged between the impeller magnet and the pump housing stopping the impeller from turning, but not the motor from running…

Then the questions & discussion centered around how their systems reacted to loss of water flow and how & when their pump ran…Some of it was info that was a bit misleading for others depending on what type of system & control they have…So I posted these two posts below to try to help out…It's good info so why not share it here on my own site too ?

• My first post…

I'm glad the Chief Alen sorted out his pump problem but I thought I could add a bit of info to the thread…

If it is a single A/C system installed (not more than one compressor or control) there will be no need for a pump relay.

If it is a older Cruisair 3 knob type cabin control…Yes the pump will run with the fan and not cycle with the compressor unless it has been changed or is a newer digital control.

The thought back in those days was that when wired to the fan circuit…The owner could verify flow over the side before switching the system to run…They have since re-thought, and have changed that practice/wiring…

Yes it can also be wired to the compressor circuit so that it will cycle with the compressor…
It can be a simple change, but first you need to find where the pump wire runs to…Some run to the unit, and others are run to the terminal strip that should be within 3 feet of the cabin control….You then just remove the black pump wire from under the red terminal (Cruisair) and reconnect it along with the purple compressor wire…The pump should then cycle with the t-stat/compressor.

The other thing to watch for with the March Mag drive pumps is if they are run dry for very long…They will heat up enough to melt the plastic on the back side of the impeller around the ceramic shaft, and also the impeller mating surface of the plastic head itself…
The impeller may appear to rotate fine when the cover is removed but it won't when the pressure of the cover is against the impeller with the cover installed…If this is the case…The housing & impeller can be replaced, or you can also get the complete head without having to replace the whole pump.

Steve~

• Then another gentleman posted…

“I guess I must have the ideal system. If the water flow is disrupted on mine…the breaker trips.”

• My reply…

That is a good thing…But not actually a function of design of the A/C system or control.

I'll try to explain…

Most Marine A/C units with manual cabin controls have what is called a “Line Voltage” automatic reset high pressure switch (meaning it is actually carrying the compressor current) that trips around 425 psi, but then resets itself at around 325 psi…

Mermaid was one exception…They had/have a Manual reset Hi PS Switch with a push to reset button…Anyway…

Normal system operating high side pressure is somewhere between 200-250 psi depending on water flow & the temp of that seawater…

Also…In a Normal startup (system has been idle for a few minutes) the low & high side pressures will be equal (or very close)
This pressure will depend on ambient air temp but it will not ever be much over 196 psi (that's assuming a 100 degree cabin)and usually much lower.

The compressor has a fairly easy time getting rolling against that kind of pressure….But at where the pressure switch resets (325 psi) it has a much tougher time and thus draws much more amperage (than normal) in trying to re-start against that High pressure…Therefore tripping the breaker…

Units that didn't come with a start relay & capacitor have a harder time starting than ones that did come so equipped…

The ones that came equipped usually will start on lower dock power, and also may re-start at that 325 psi if the breaker is not closely matched to the size system it is powering…

Breakers are most often spec'd for wire size & distance to any given piece of equipment (under normal load conditions) for that equipment…The wire is also sized to be able to carry that projected load.

So you might see…There are trade offs…

Tripping that breaker weakens it a bit every time…Yeah I know…It shouldn't happen that often…And it does protect my A/C & Pump…

But having a unit that did not come with start components can mean the difference of being cool, or not being cool with marginal dock power (Like at a lot of backwoods marinas, and behind many homes) It can also mean a given unit may or may not start on a smaller gen set or inverter with other essentials running…

Tanqueray…I'm not saying your unit does or does not have start components…I'd have to know what you have to know that, but I can also say to everyone that a start kit can be added very easily to most all systems that don't have a relay & capacitor already installed if your situation warrants it…

The reason most manufacturers didn't use them was cost…I can also add that up until a few years ago Cruisair had them on all their units.

Note: The digital controls of Cruisair/Marine Air handle Hi/Ps much differently than manual controls….But that's another post…

Edit Note: Since the time of this original post, Dometic Cruisair/Marine Air has come out with a patented SmartStart that far out performs a standard hard start kit, or even a real start capacitor/relay…I should also add that I have personally installed them and they really do live up to the claims.  

We offer them in our store…Just click on the link below to see it, and it’s info…There is even a video…

http://marine-ac.com/2010/11/0…..-assist-2/

Steve~