Here’s what I can share at this point from the Cruisair/Marine Air perspective & what I have been told.

Self Contained R-22 units are no longer in production…sort of…

Since 417a is a drop in replacement for R-22 you can get the R-22 units (but they are shipping charged with R-417a)

We are told that the R-417a drop in replacement refrigerant for R-22 is 17% less efficient than the R-22 in the same unit (like running 60Hz equipment on 50Hz power)

So if you bought a new R-417a unit…You can evacuate the R-417a and re-charge that unit with R-22 to realize the same performance as a R-22 unit that was purchased before the production change…

You can also evacuate a older R-22 system & recharge with 417a…But the 17% performance drop still applies…

R-22 refrigerant should still be available for quite some time yet…But…The price will climb pretty quickly.

Edit:  5/1/2011…2020 is slated to be the end of production of R-22 in the US…None will be imported either…But at that point, if you still have an operational R-22 system, it can be evacuated and re-charged with R-417a.

The new R-410a cannot be used in a R-22/R417a system even with evacuation…It’s not compatible with the oil in the 22 system & the pressures will run too high in that system (metering devise is not set for it either)

My distributor has about 3 months worth of sales of units with R-22 available, but after they are gone he will only stock the new R-410a units….And is now only ordering Self Contained unit with the new R410a.

5/11/2011…R-22/R417 self contained units are no longer in stock.

Split or Remote systems are a whole different story…

One thing they are the same in is that none of the existing systems can run the new R-410a, but they can run the R-417a with the 17% drop in performance….but the problem is bigger with small split systems.

Typically the 16K & smaller split systems have always used piston type compressors as opposed to the rotary type that have been used in self contained units for many years now…

The reason for this is that the rotary type compressor does not lend itself well to long copper line runs…
Rotary crankcases don’t hold enough oil for the migration of oil with the refrigerant throughout the longer line runs in split systems…
It’s my understanding that the rotary can run out of oil before it has a chance to return with the refrigerant, and thus can ruin itself in a split system from lack of lubrication.

The compressor manufacturers are being forced to phase out production of the lower efficiency piston compressors by the EPA or whomever…

5/1/2011…We still have no info on when this might happen but as of this date…Replacement R-22 split system units with the older piston compressors are still in production…But only ship with R-417a which can be evacuated after installation & replaced with R-22 to maintain efficiency.

Scroll compressors would be a great alternative, but as of yet…The compressor manufacturers have not developed Scroll compressors in the smaller sizes that are required for our smaller Marine split systems (the larger than 16k marine units are using scrolls now)
I guess they figure the Marine market is too small to develop new small scrolls for, and that the rotary’s are fine for the home window unit market (which is what the the rotary’s were developed for)

I know that Dometic Cruisair/Marine Air has been testing small splits using rotary’s for quite some time now…So far they aren’t saying much…

Until then…They are only offering the same piston type smaller split systems and shipping with R-417a (the drop in replacement for R-22) to meet the new regulations….The Larger splits (over 16K) will be available as either R-417a (mainly for replacements of the older R-22 units) or the new R-410a units, but to utilize R-410a condensing unit you must also change the air handler…No need for new copper tubing runs.

Dometic is now offering their new “Emerald Series” split/remote systems with rotary compressors (16K & below) Also with  TXV’s (thermostatic expansion valve) metering devises at both the condensing unit & air handler (2 TXV’s)…Larger than 16K “Emerald Series” systems are Scroll compressors.

Steve~

Anyway…

Below is a post I answered in the Hatteras Owners Forum, and it seems to be a subject that many of you all are searching for answers to this time of year…It also applies to cooling in the summer, but is mostly about system Icing & the causes…I’m also going to  link this article to a Forum post here on this site so that anyone that may have questions or need further clarifications may ask away there…

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeaWhisper Don’t mean to jump on this thread ! Steve if your following, I have been experiencing an a/c problem also but on the heat mode side. I have 4 A/C system with one giving me a icing problem on the compressor unit. Starting on the suction side and loop tubing of the remote unit is freezing up with heavy ice. The compressor is hot to touch. Check air handling unit… High fan, clean filter giving out warm air. Water flow thru compressor unit and 3 other unit’s has a high flow rate. Water temp is around low 50′s. I can switch the unit to cool mode and it will melt the ice of the compressor unit… Your thoughts on what may be causes the heavy icing…. Low freon? Unit is a 16,000 btu maybe 2 years old, with smxir controls. Thanks…

Mike~

First I need to clarify what you mean by…”Starting on the suction side and loop tubing of the remote unit is freezing up with heavy ice. “

Do you mean the water coil ?

If so…Then it would be hard to know that the unit in question is actually getting proper water flow by looking over the side…Since all the 53 MY’s I can remember, had a single overboard discharge fitting with a 4 unit manifold attached.

You would need to remove the hose for the unit in question from that overboard manifold, and either let it run into the bilge or a bucket…It’s not uncommon to have a blockage or some kind of growth restricting one unit’s seawater flow….This can cause what you describe.

Yes the compressor will run a bit hotter in the heat mode…

Icing is always an indication of Low Pressure…What is causing that low pressure is key to solving it…Duh ?

First…Pressure & Temp correspond with refrigerants…The lower the pressure of the refrigerant…The lower the temp of that refrigerant…

If you place a jug of refrigerant in a room and connect a pressure gauge to it…then let it get to room temp by just sitting there…

With a pressure temp chart for that particular refrigerant (in this case R-22) you can tell the temp of the room by the pressure shown on the pressure gauge…If that room is 32*…The gauge will read somewhere around 56-58 psi. (the chart I have with me right now jumps from 30 to 35 degrees so I’m guessing a bit but that’s close)

When running in heat mode the water coil is the evaporator and is on the low side of the system (cold part) the air handler is the high side (hot part)

In cooling they switch duties because the Reversing Valve will send the refrigerant around the system in the opposite direction.

Thus a “Reverse Cycle” system also known as a Heat Pump…

Back to what I started saying about Icing being an indication of low pressure…

Air Conditioning is what we call a High Temp System…Designed evaporator temps above freezing (32*)…Therefore “Low Pressure” in a R-22 A/C system is defined as below that 58-56 psi I mentioned earlier…Which will cause icing by freezing any moisture that is in contact with that surface thus blocking flow…Either Air or Water (depending on which mode you are running in)

A/C (and refrigeration) is all about moving or removing heat, since there is no such thing as Cold…Just the absence of Heat…Making it feel Cold…

In the heat mode you are picking up heat from the water with the water coil and dumping it into the cabin, using the refrigerant as the truck to carry it, and the fan in the cabin to dump it out of the truck…Cooling is just the opposite, and uses the Cabin coil to load the truck with heat, and the water to dump it out.

Any restriction…Ice, Air Flow, Water flow etc…Will affect how much of that heat can be picked up by a designed size coil in both the heat & or cool modes.

This is why icing is not good with A/C…Refrigeration is another story since it usually has defrost timers & heaters…A/C does not, or should not need due to the temp range it was designed to operate in…with Above 32* evaporators.

The biggest problem with icing the water coil in heat mode is the danger of freezing the seawater in that coil & blocking flow completely…Thus causing expansion, and a rupture of that water coil…

This will allow the freon to leak out into the water, and the water to leak into the freon circuit, effectively ruining the complete system by pumping that seawater throughout the system with the compressor.

Low amount of freon causing icing ?…Yes this can also act the same as flow restriction…

Either way…Low freon, or Flow restriction…If the truck/s can’t get full for every circuit (restriction) or don’t start full (low freon) you are not moving the designed amount of heat that the system was made to transfer…Both of which will cause Low Pressure on the on the suspension of the trucks…

Back to:

Low pressure = Low temp = Icing…

Icing = Restriction = Less Flow = Lower Pressure…etc…etc…

One compounds another.

I should also add that lack of heat (or low temp) of either the water (in heating) or the cabin air (in cooling) will cause low pressure due to the fact enough heat is not there for the system to pick up in the first place…Low temp again equals low pressure, and the systems job is to move heat.

I know that was long guys…But I hope it helps in a lot of these questions…I know it can be confusing, or boring to read but it’s all part of understanding what is happening…

I tried to put it into the easiest layman’s terms I could think of…If you have any questions on what I said just ask & I will try to clear them up.

Steve~

First & Foremost are Filters…and not just the Sea Strainer I talked about in my last article….But the ones in the Return Air path too…

Direct Expansion A/C (as opposed to Chilled Water) systems rely heavily on good air flow to keep from icing up in the cool mode (Low pressure) or shutting off due to High pressure in the heating mode…

Generally speaking…Most boats may have two Return Air Filters per system or control…Some have more if there are more than one air handler on that system (compressor)

If you have a small cabin adjacent to another that the fan operates off the control in the other cabin (or just has a speed control installed in that small cabin) this may be one instance….

The trick to finding air handlers is to first look for the return air grill…

Once you have located the Return air Grill (also a likely spot for the first filter) it should be removed…Check if a filter is installed on the back side of the grill…If so remove it and set it aside…

Now with a flashlight…Look into that hole to see the path the air would take…At the end of that path should be the air handlers location…You may have to open another cabinet, or locker to gain access to that location, and boat builders can be very inventive in placing them in out of the way places…Ones that sometimes seem impossible to get to, but in most cases a panel can be removed for access…Here is where the second filter is located…On the aluminum fins of the evaporator coil…

All major manufacturers of marine A/C have shipped their units with a filter installed at the factory for some time now…If there is not one there…It has likely been removed after the system was installed…

I have serviced boats that the owners never knew of this factory installed filter…Or the air handler’s location for that matter…Thus when I removed the filter it looked like a piece of carpet…We all know Air does not flow thru carpet too well…

The manufactures install them there not knowing if a filter is going to be utilized in the grill at system installation…and If it is a clean path to the air handler (one that is not likely to get dust from another path) this filter can sometimes be discarded if it is tough to access, but it is better to have both in most cases…

In boats with multiple controls (more than one system) follow the above procedure till you have all the filters in hand…Take them out to the dock and have fun with the water hose…That is unless someone has installed the throw away fiberglass/paper filters, in which case I would recommend you replace them with some foam filter material that you might find at your marine A/C dealer…Or what Home Depot/Lowes etc…offers for home window A/C units.

Now either wait for them to dry…Or shake them out and re-install…A little water on them will not hurt a thing…

If you can get a good look at the aluminum fins…Check to see that they are not also clogged…If they are…That’s another story, and it’s probably time to call you’re A/C guy to clean them because he has access to cleaning solutions that work real well for this…and also likely has the equipment to do the job right…With less mess…

If you want to clean them yourself with a squirt bottle & garden hose…He may even sell you some cleaner, or you can try Home Depot…However what they offer never seems to work as well as what he gets from the wholesale A/C supply house…

Before you close the cabinet back up you should also check the condition/operation of the condensate drain…Especially after washing the coil…All that stuff that got washed off is now in the condensate pan and could have clogged the drain fitting/s or hose…

Best way to test this is with a quart or two of tap water…You can add some bleach/Lysol/whatever to kill bacteria…But first I would run some plain water into the drain pan to find out if the drain is clogged…This way you won’t have to suck out the bleach water to avoid it dripping onto surfaces when you remove the hose to blow it out…

Please Note: If you have to blow out the hose or fittings, and the only way you have to do so is by mouth…Try to find a clean piece of garden hose or the like to attach to the existing fitting or hose…These hoses are where bacteria like the Legionaires Virus live…You don’t want the old hose, or the condensate water to touch or enter your mouth!!!

Once you are done…We are ready to start up the system/s…

This is a good time for you to check the seawater pump & its pump relay operation (for boats with more than one A/C system supplied seawater by a single pump)

A seawater pump relay is a box connected to the pump that receives a signal from each separate unit…and then tells the pump to start pumping seawater when each, or any unit calls for it (starts to run)

They are easy to verify if they are working properly just by starting one system…Waiting for the compressor to come on…and then either looking over the side of the boat for water discharge, or if the pump actually runs by hearing it start…

Once you verify that that system started the pump…Switch the control off for that system…Wait for the pump to stop…Then follow the same procedure for each system by itself…You don’t want to run more than one system at a time for this test as it may be one of the other systems that brings the pump on…

If one of the systems does not bring the pump on…There is a problem with the pump relay box…Over the years there have been many kinds/models of pump relays, and to say how to troubleshoot each here would be kinda lengthy…However if you feel you have a problem, I will be happy to discuss your model/issue in the blog if you like…Otherwise you probably need to call Ole Faithful A/C Guy…

Now that we have verified Good seawater flow overboard and pump relay operation…We can run all systems…Do so for about half an hour….

Now we need to locate each compressor…

There are basically two kinds of direct expansion marine A/C systems.

• Self Contained units…sometimes called Stowaways or Cabin Mates…These are all in one units where the compressor, condenser, evaporator & blower are all on the same base…They are usually located behind the return air grille, and under a settee or in a closet…They are more like a window unit than central A/C…As the compressor is almost in the living space and thus you can get a bit more noise…Though now days the newer rotary compressors are pretty quiet.
• Split Systems…Sometimes called Remote…These are more like the central systems you may have at home…In that the compressor & condenser are “Remotely” located and connected to the Air handler/evaporator section by copper tubing to carry the refrigerant…These systems are quieter, and have more flexibility in that they can have more than one air handler/evaporator running off one compressor…and thus allow for installation in smaller cabinets, with smaller units, to reduce air noise even more…The total of air handler BTU just must pretty closely match the condensing units capacity….

Now that we have located the Compressor/s and they have run for a half hour…Be certain they are still running in cool mode…If not…Lower the temp setting of your control (t-stat)

Now locate the seawater condenser…It’s the tubes that horizontally (most are horizontal but some are vertical) wrap around the top of the compressor (condensing) unit…there should be at least two water hoses connected to it (some have 4) and with the palm of your hand…Grab the top coil….It should be Warm…but not Hot…

If it is Hot in more than one place…The unit is not performing as it should and is probably drawing more amperage than designed…

A couple of likely reasons…

• Seawater flow is not up to spec…Look for restrictions
• Seawater condenser is dirty…Needs to be flushed with an acid solution…Similar to the radiator in your car…At any rate…Not enough heat is being removed from the refrigerant…
• Not likely…But an overcharge of refrigerant…Maybe that last A/C guy didn’t do so good?…Or was it a buddy that said he knew what to do?
• Even less likely…Someone replaced the seawater pump with one that doesn’t have enough GPH pumping capacity for the system…Maybe somebody’s buddy was trying to save him a buck or two…You may laugh, but I’ve seen that happen too…Hey…He meant well!
• Most of the above reasons are probably best to call the A/C guy…Not the buddy…However you can & I will walk you thru flushing a coil to remove the scale that acts like a insulating blanket preventing proper heat transfer…Just at another time…

This next test is mostly for owners of Split/Remote systems…

Most of the newer Self Contained systems use what is called a Rotary compressor…Some of the older ones are still around that use the older reciprocating (piston) type…and to determine which you have is hard to explain if you have never seen either…But the Rotary type is usually slightly taller, and a lot skinnier than the Piston type…Have you got a Fat compressor matey?

Anyway…A piston type compressor that is too hot to touch on top…Is likely low on Freon…Rotary’s run Hot but Piston’s do not…

If either type is Cold or sweating…That’s another set of possibilities…

• Lack of air flow due to…Dirty filters or coils…Hey I thought we did that?
• Overcharge of refrigerant…That buddy again?
• Ductwork that is too small (or even crushed due to the space it was run thru) to properly handle the flow of air that the system BTU requires…We could blame…But let’s not…It won’t do any good anyway, and it’s gonna get too in depth here…Again we can discuss it in the blog for each individual circumstance…
• Last but not least…In a split system…Multiple Air handlers that don’t add up to compressor/condensing unit BTU…We won’t go into that here either….

This is getting a bit long…So in closing…I hope I have helped some…I look forward to answering any questions that I might…

Think of you’re A/C guy this New Years…I’m sure he thinks of you too…I know I do…

Steve~

I started this site last year to “put my feelers out”  about what owners and captains may want to learn and share about marine  a/c.

The support has been more than I ever expected…

So… My New Year resolution to you is expand the site we created…Because of your feedback I am going to begin adding to my store to allow you to order most of the common Marine A/C system items that I found you’ve needed,  but until the store is fully operational…As always I’m here for you to contact…

Some important information…Sadly…Due to EPA regulations there will be no more R-22 systems/units produced in 2010…

• If you need to replace a R-22 condensing unit in an existing system…You will need to purchase a R-417A unit, evacuate your R-22 (which you would do anyway) and re-charge the system with R-417A (drop in replacement for R-22)…No need to change the air handler.
• For new installations (split system or self contained) the systems have been re-designed to operate with environmentally friendly R-410A which operates at much higher pressures that the existing R-22 or R-417A systems…These R-410A units can Not be paired with the older air handlers.

Your local A/C guy will know what to do & have the equipment to make the change.

Your comments & feedback are always welcome & appreciated…I need things to help me write…So ask away…It does stir the thoughts…

Clean Sea Strainers to All, and to All a Good Year…Think of the A/C/Heat/ Refer Guy…He Does You…

Steve~

Everyone can access it, but registration is required to post…I don’t share that info…You can find the link at the top of any of Marine -AC.com’s pages…Just click on “Forum”…Or you can click on this http://marine-ac.com/forum/

We are slowly growing, and I seem to notice from the searches what folks do to find Marine-A/C.com. I also see that many are either not finding the forum and/or asking their questions…

So again I would like to offer the suggestion that you “Check It Out”

Please don’t be afraid to ask anything you would search for answers for in any search engine…In my experience there are Not a lot of sites (if any) offering personal answers out there for the Marine A/C & Refrigeration field, and it’s one of the main reasons I have offered this forum section.

Join in with questions and comments…Hopefully together we can make this a one stop source for your marine a/c info,  experiences & troubleshooting.

I personally look forward to interacting with everyone…

Note: If you do decide to register & participate…Please input your location in the space provided as it helps to know your climate without having to ask.

Steve~