One compressor & 5 air handlers in this case…This system is in a Berger Yacht & cools the lower deck cabins…

The Cruisair units in the second picture were added after the Pilot House/Aft Deck were enclosed…

Sorry for the not so good pictures but my iPhone has no flash (waiting for upgrade time)

Steve~

This is just a note to confirm that I offer FREE Troubleshooting help for your Marine A/C & Refrigeration issues…But I ONLY do this in the FORUM section…If you can’t take the time to register & ask in the FORUM…I usually won’t respond…(this section is not setup for dialog/discussion…it’s only setup for comments)

My only request in return is that you Consider me when buying replacement parts, or units…And that if local, you also consider my services….But how’s they saying go ?

No Purchase Necessary…That price can’t be beat at half the cost !!!

All you need to do is join & ask in the FORUM section most relative to your issue  http://marine-ac.com/forum/

Post your own title (thread) in the section that applies, and I’ll be happy to respond with my best honest advise…

Thanks Again,

Steve~

Here’s what I can share at this point from the Cruisair/Marine Air perspective & what I have been told.

Self Contained R-22 units are no longer in production…sort of…

Since 417a is a drop in replacement for R-22 you can get the R-22 units (but they are shipping charged with R-417a)

We are told that the R-417a drop in replacement refrigerant for R-22 is 17% less efficient than the R-22 in the same unit (like running 60Hz equipment on 50Hz power)

So if you bought a new R-417a unit…You can evacuate the R-417a and re-charge that unit with R-22 to realize the same performance as a R-22 unit that was purchased before the production change…

You can also evacuate a older R-22 system & recharge with 417a…But the 17% performance drop still applies…

R-22 refrigerant should still be available for quite some time yet…But…The price will climb pretty quickly.

Edit:  5/1/2011…2020 is slated to be the end of production of R-22 in the US…None will be imported either…But at that point, if you still have an operational R-22 system, it can be evacuated and re-charged with R-417a.

The new R-410a cannot be used in a R-22/R417a system even with evacuation…It’s not compatible with the oil in the 22 system & the pressures will run too high in that system (metering devise is not set for it either)

My distributor has about 3 months worth of sales of units with R-22 available, but after they are gone he will only stock the new R-410a units….And is now only ordering Self Contained unit with the new R410a.

5/11/2011…R-22/R417 self contained units are no longer in stock.

Split or Remote systems are a whole different story…

One thing they are the same in is that none of the existing systems can run the new R-410a, but they can run the R-417a with the 17% drop in performance….but the problem is bigger with small split systems.

Typically the 16K & smaller split systems have always used piston type compressors as opposed to the rotary type that have been used in self contained units for many years now…

The reason for this is that the rotary type compressor does not lend itself well to long copper line runs…
Rotary crankcases don’t hold enough oil for the migration of oil with the refrigerant throughout the longer line runs in split systems…
It’s my understanding that the rotary can run out of oil before it has a chance to return with the refrigerant, and thus can ruin itself in a split system from lack of lubrication.

The compressor manufacturers are being forced to phase out production of the lower efficiency piston compressors by the EPA or whomever…

5/1/2011…We still have no info on when this might happen but as of this date…Replacement R-22 split system units with the older piston compressors are still in production…But only ship with R-417a which can be evacuated after installation & replaced with R-22 to maintain efficiency.

Scroll compressors would be a great alternative, but as of yet…The compressor manufacturers have not developed Scroll compressors in the smaller sizes that are required for our smaller Marine split systems (the larger than 16k marine units are using scrolls now)
I guess they figure the Marine market is too small to develop new small scrolls for, and that the rotary’s are fine for the home window unit market (which is what the the rotary’s were developed for)

I know that Dometic Cruisair/Marine Air has been testing small splits using rotary’s for quite some time now…So far they aren’t saying much…

Until then…They are only offering the same piston type smaller split systems and shipping with R-417a (the drop in replacement for R-22) to meet the new regulations….The Larger splits (over 16K) will be available as either R-417a (mainly for replacements of the older R-22 units) or the new R-410a units, but to utilize R-410a condensing unit you must also change the air handler…No need for new copper tubing runs.

Dometic is now offering their new “Emerald Series” split/remote systems with rotary compressors (16K & below) Also with  TXV’s (thermostatic expansion valve) metering devises at both the condensing unit & air handler (2 TXV’s)…Larger than 16K “Emerald Series” systems are Scroll compressors.

Steve~

I started this site last year to “put my feelers out”  about what owners and captains may want to learn and share about marine  a/c.

The support has been more than I ever expected…

So… My New Year resolution to you is expand the site we created…Because of your feedback I am going to begin adding to my store to allow you to order most of the common Marine A/C system items that I found you’ve needed,  but until the store is fully operational…As always I’m here for you to contact…

Some important information…Sadly…Due to EPA regulations there will be no more R-22 systems/units produced in 2010…

• If you need to replace a R-22 condensing unit in an existing system…You will need to purchase a R-417A unit, evacuate your R-22 (which you would do anyway) and re-charge the system with R-417A (drop in replacement for R-22)…No need to change the air handler.
• For new installations (split system or self contained) the systems have been re-designed to operate with environmentally friendly R-410A which operates at much higher pressures that the existing R-22 or R-417A systems…These R-410A units can Not be paired with the older air handlers.

Your local A/C guy will know what to do & have the equipment to make the change.

Your comments & feedback are always welcome & appreciated…I need things to help me write…So ask away…It does stir the thoughts…

Clean Sea Strainers to All, and to All a Good Year…Think of the A/C/Heat/ Refer Guy…He Does You…

Steve~

Hi Mark…Don’t know if you are still watching this thread, or if you have seen my thread over in the “Introduce Yourself” forum but here’s my take…

It seems that when the system was flushed, that it was flushed just well enough to break loose some stuff…Now it is floating around in the hoses and randomly blocking flow where it now lodges from time to time…
Once the pump shuts off the water drains back, and with it the loose stuff moves…Only to lodge again maybe somewhere else when the pump starts again…

If the water flow does not look right to you (and you obviously have been watching it since new) then it is not right, and will continue to get worse…Changing the pump will not fix a thing unless the pump had a problem…It can only pump water thru unrestricted passages, and that water it can pump will re-direct to the un-restricted passages…Like said…Path of least resistance.

From descriptions here & in the thread I started…It seems the 459 has what I would call a odd or improper A/C plumbing/pump setup…

This happens sometimes with boat builders…Generally speaking…In my experience the only way to get them to make a change in a poor setup is for enough customers to have a problem and complain…No amount of prodding from us A/C guys ever seems to help in effecting that change…It’s a shame too because we are the ones dealing with this stuff everyday…They deal with building boats everyday…

So what is the fix ?…Well marine growth will always be a problem but there are a few things that can be done to help…

Over the years the A/C systems that boat builders install have gravitated to the Self Contained all in one units as opposed to the Split/Remote systems that most utilised for years…They don’t need guys with refrigerant certification to install or buy these All in One units…They are easier to install, and freon leaks in connections of copper tubing line runs are no longer something they need to worry about warrantying….All they have to do now is run power, water hoses from the pump, and duct…

The problem with this is the water runs are now much further than when the “Central” type systems were installed all in one location close to the pump…Back then we had very little growth problems (just scale buildup in condensers that was easy to remove) and flow was much easier to plan & maintain…

What I have found since this change is that the further, and or higher you pump seawater…The more problems you will have with growth, and it has also created the problems I describe below with using larger pumps…

Directing a pumps flow to units of varying distance & height for even flow to each…Is a challenge to say the least !
Generally their answer is to install an oversized pump in an attempt to brute force flow…

No I have not seen a 459 but it has been described as having two units on the bridge and 2 down below…I don’t care how they manifold this setup…It still going to be very hard to get the proper flow to each unit, and the least little restriction can and will upset any kind of balance they have designed into that system…The Pump has to overcome the height (Head) it needs to pump to the units on the bridge so it likely has been over sized just to do that with enough volume for those units…The remaining water can then supply the lower units…

Over sized pumps are never really the best answer over time (though it may be cheaper for them) because a over sized pump attempting to pump thru say four 5/8″ condensers (in this case) is (even when the system is clean) likely not pumping it’s rated flow which will cause it’s impeller to cavitate…This causes cavitation burns to the bronze impeller & pump housing…Thus causing premature pump head failure.

Again having not seen the install…My answer would be to install two pumps…One for the upper units, and one for the lower units…
They both could then be sized for the job presented, the systems & pumps would be much happier with less overall maintenance.

Steve~

Hi Steve, love your web site – lots of great info. ! Our company does a lot of yacht maintenance / mechanical preventive maintenance type stuff here in Wilmington, N.C. – my question is, do you have an opinion concerning back flushing the sea water lines on marine air conditioning systems ? That is, do you think there is any benefit to occasionally (2 or 3 times per season), removing the water discharge hose and connecting a dockside water hose to the unit and pumping water backwards through the system. I have talked with some individuals who believe that doing so helps to remove/reduce the amount of marine growth in the coils and hoses, eliminating the need for or reducing the frequency of acid cleaning. Any advice or opinions you can offer would be greatly appreciated

Bill

Everyone can access it, but registration is required to post…I don’t share that info…You can find the link at the top of any of Marine -AC.com’s pages…Just click on “Forum”…Or you can click on this http://marine-ac.com/forum/

We are slowly growing, and I seem to notice from the searches what folks do to find Marine-A/C.com. I also see that many are either not finding the forum and/or asking their questions…

So again I would like to offer the suggestion that you “Check It Out”

Please don’t be afraid to ask anything you would search for answers for in any search engine…In my experience there are Not a lot of sites (if any) offering personal answers out there for the Marine A/C & Refrigeration field, and it’s one of the main reasons I have offered this forum section.

Join in with questions and comments…Hopefully together we can make this a one stop source for your marine a/c info,  experiences & troubleshooting.

I personally look forward to interacting with everyone…

Note: If you do decide to register & participate…Please input your location in the space provided as it helps to know your climate without having to ask.

Steve~